I believe I have found a few bugs in stats

[RustyBrooks]

OK so I am the author of a HUD that works with PTS/PTO/PTH. So I'm familiar with the underlying tables in the database, and I was browsing through them and I noticed 2 things that seem strange to me.

1. sometimes - but not always? - if someone brings in, and then it limps around to them, it considers this as voluntarily committing money to the pot - but it really isn't, right, it's a forced blind (unless they bringin-complete). This does not really affect vpip THAT much because it can only happen 1/8 times at most, and only if everyone limps. It affects vpip about 1% for me.

2. if someone raises on 3rd, and everyone folds, saw_fourth_n=1 for that player, but really, he did not see 4th. This seems like a big deal because many stats are as a function of saw_fourth, like the went-to-showdown stat. This causes about a 10% discrepancy for me - if you don't count these as saw_fourth events, then your denominator for WTSD is much lower. The effect is greater in short handed games, because this happens a lot more there.

Just curious if this is really intended behavior. I can provide some HH that show these problems if you need them.

[ptrack mike]

Yes, please give me some hands from all poker sites that does these things. I'll need to check all import functions.

[RustyBrooks]

Here is a hand that when imported into PT, has vol_put_money_in_pot=1 for seat 5

Note that seat 5 brought in and did not call any bet on 3rd. I don't think this is consistently true for all hands that limp around like this - I haven't systematically identified why some hands have it and some don't.

POKERSTARS GAME #31067498105: HORSE (7 CARD STUD LIMIT, $0.25/$0.50) - 2009/07/30 20:17:39 ET
Table 'Alphard' 8-max
Seat 1: RETOOH ($8.55 in chips)
Seat 2: Kayes74 ($25.20 in chips)
Seat 3: terdslinger ($1.45 in chips)
Seat 4: HouseCalls ($53.35 in chips)
Seat 5: swafjto ($10.85 in chips)
Seat 7: Majorlove ($6.95 in chips)
Seat 8: IslaDeCoiba ($10 in chips)
RETOOH: posts the ante $0.05
Kayes74: posts the ante $0.05
terdslinger: posts the ante $0.05
HouseCalls: posts the ante $0.05
swafjto: posts the ante $0.05
Majorlove: posts the ante $0.05
IslaDeCoiba: posts the ante $0.05
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to RETOOH [9d]
Dealt to Kayes74 [Jc]
Dealt to terdslinger [Ks]
Dealt to HouseCalls [9s]
Dealt to swafjto [Td 2s 3c]
Dealt to Majorlove [4h]
Dealt to IslaDeCoiba [Js]
swafjto: brings in for $0.10
Majorlove: folds
IslaDeCoiba: folds
RETOOH: calls $0.10
Kayes74: folds
terdslinger: folds
HouseCalls: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to RETOOH [9d] [Qh]
Dealt to swafjto [Td 2s 3c] [Kh]
swafjto: checks
NJImpala has returned
RETOOH: checks
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to RETOOH [9d Qh] [Ah]
Dealt to swafjto [Td 2s 3c Kh] [7h]
RETOOH: checks
swafjto: checks
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to RETOOH [9d Qh Ah] [7d]
Dealt to swafjto [Td 2s 3c Kh 7h] [As]
swafjto: checks
RETOOH: bets $0.50
swafjto: calls $0.50
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to swafjto [Td 2s 3c Kh 7h As] [Ts]
swafjto: checks
RETOOH: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RETOOH: shows [9c 4d 9d Qh Ah 7d Tc] (a pair of Nines)
swafjto: shows [Td 2s 3c Kh 7h As Ts] (a pair of Tens)
swafjto collected $1.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.55 | Rake $0.05
Seat 1: RETOOH showed [9c 4d 9d Qh Ah 7d Tc] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 2: Kayes74 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: terdslinger folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: HouseCalls folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: swafjto showed [Td 2s 3c Kh 7h As Ts] and won ($1.50) with a pair of Tens
Seat 7: Majorlove folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: IslaDeCoiba folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

[RustyBrooks]

Here's a similar example from FTP. Again, seat 5 is marked as voluntarily participating in pot, when they brought in and did not call a bet.

FullTiltPoker Game #13199247097: Table Robindale - $3/$6 Ante $0.50 - Limit Stud H/L - 15:32:03 ET - 2009/07/04
Seat 1: lewuschka ($71.50)
Seat 2: trustacctnt ($13)
Seat 3: soreloser09 ($61.50)
Seat 4: WhySoCereus ($114)
Seat 5: swafjto ($192.50)
Seat 6: Chad Eveslage ($171)
Seat 7: JOSH1205 ($24)
Seat 8: Zoroastro ($58.50)
WhySoCereus antes $0.50
Chad Eveslage antes $0.50
swafjto antes $0.50
JOSH1205 antes $0.50
lewuschka antes $0.50
trustacctnt antes $0.50
Zoroastro antes $0.50
soreloser09 antes $0.50
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to lewuschka [9h]
Dealt to trustacctnt [Ts]
Dealt to soreloser09 [9s]
Dealt to WhySoCereus [5c]
Dealt to swafjto [8s 9c] [2d]
Dealt to Chad Eveslage [5s]
Dealt to JOSH1205 [7d]
Dealt to Zoroastro [3d]
swafjto is low with [2d]
swafjto brings in for $1
Chad Eveslage folds
JOSH1205 folds
Zoroastro folds
lewuschka folds
trustacctnt calls $1
soreloser09 calls $1
WhySoCereus folds
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to trustacctnt [Ts] [6s]
Dealt to soreloser09 [9s] [Kh]
Dealt to swafjto [8s 9c 2d] [7c]
soreloser09 checks
swafjto checks
trustacctnt checks
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to trustacctnt [Ts 6s] [Kc]
Dealt to soreloser09 [9s Kh] [7h]
Dealt to swafjto [8s 9c 2d 7c] [Jd]
trustacctnt checks
soreloser09 checks
swafjto checks
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to trustacctnt [Ts 6s Kc] [8c]
Dealt to soreloser09 [9s Kh 7h] [As]
Dealt to swafjto [8s 9c 2d 7c Jd] [4d]
soreloser09 bets $6
swafjto has 15 seconds left to act
swafjto calls $6
trustacctnt folds
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to swafjto [8s 9c 2d 7c Jd 4d] [Jc]
soreloser09 bets $6
swafjto folds
Uncalled bet of $6 returned to soreloser09
soreloser09 mucks
soreloser09 wins the pot ($19)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $19 | Rake $0
Seat 1: lewuschka folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: trustacctnt folded on 6th St.
Seat 3: soreloser09 collected ($19), mucked
Seat 4: WhySoCereus folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: swafjto folded on 7th St.
Seat 6: Chad Eveslage folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: JOSH1205 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: Zoroastro folded on 3rd St.

[RustyBrooks]

Here's an example where saw_fourth_n=1 even though everyone folded on 3rd. This *seems* to be systematic for pretty much all hands I've looked at where someone raises 3rd and everyone folds. This may be a semantic difference but if so I'm not sure what the argument for having saw_fourth_n=1 is - it sort of screws up a lot of stats. WTSD for example is a percentage of times you saw fourth. If everyone folds 4th, then you don't even have an OPTION to see a showdown so it's sort of meaningless to include those in the denominator.

FullTiltPoker Game #13199401074: Table Pleasant Hill - $3/$6 Ante $0.50 - Limit Stud H/L - 15:39:52 ET - 2009/07/04
Seat 1: swafjto ($236)
Seat 4: Jacklyn1 ($49)
swafjto antes $0.50
Jacklyn1 antes $0.50
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to swafjto [9s 6c] [3s]
Dealt to Jacklyn1 [9d]
swafjto is low with [3s]
swafjto brings in for $1
Jacklyn1 folds
Uncalled bet of $1 returned to swafjto
swafjto mucks
swafjto wins the pot ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1 | Rake $0
Seat 1: swafjto collected ($1), mucked
Seat 4: Jacklyn1 folded on 3rd St.

[RustyBrooks]

This afternoon I believe I saw another problem. It looks like pokerstars hands, at least for PTS (have not checked PTO or PTH), record the pot size incorrectly. They record the size of the pot after rake has been deducted. FTP hands seem to record the pot size correctly.

Attached is an image that shows the bottom of the HH and the listing from the Game tab. I can attach a HH if you need it but realistically you should just be able to look at any PS/FTP hand and see what I'm talknig about, it seems universal.

Here's a link to the image, look at the 2 red squares
http://rustybrooks.com/tmp/PTStud-rakeproblem.jpg
(wouldn't let me post it as an image link because it's too large)

[RustyBrooks]

Found another issue, I think. Check out this hand - it says that seat 5 (me) raised 4th, but I didn't, I bet. It properly says I bet 5th (and not raised).

Here's the query I used:
select fbet, fraise, fifbet, fifraise from game
join game_players using (game_id)
where game_number=13335552130 and seat_number=5

And the results are
0 1 1 0

"FullTiltPoker Game #13335552130: Table Esther Rossi - $3/$6 Ante $0.50 - Limit Stud Hi - 19:31:46 ET - 2009/07/11
Seat 1: Rubysb ($182)
Seat 2: APELMOIKID ($78.50)
Seat 5: swafjto ($140)
Seat 6: dav2335 ($260)
Seat 7: WHL59 ($156.50)
Seat 8: Overholdt ($400)
swafjto antes $0.50
Overholdt antes $0.50
Rubysb antes $0.50
dav2335 antes $0.50
WHL59 antes $0.50
APELMOIKID antes $0.50
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Rubysb [Ac]
Dealt to APELMOIKID [Kc]
Dealt to swafjto [Ad 6d] [Jh]
Dealt to dav2335 [2s]
Dealt to WHL59 [6h]
Dealt to Overholdt [Th]
dav2335 is low with [2s]
dav2335 brings in for $1
WHL59 calls $1
Overholdt calls $1
Rubysb folds
APELMOIKID folds
swafjto calls $1
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to swafjto [Ad 6d Jh] [Js]
Dealt to dav2335 [2s] [Jc]
Dealt to WHL59 [6h] [6s]
Dealt to Overholdt [Th] [9s]
swafjto bets $6
dav2335 folds
WHL59 calls $6
Overholdt calls $6
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to swafjto [Ad 6d Jh Js] [8c]
Dealt to WHL59 [6h 6s] [Qh]
Dealt to Overholdt [Th 9s] [2c]
swafjto bets $6
WHL59 calls $6
Overholdt calls $6
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to swafjto [Ad 6d Jh Js 8c] [Tc]
Dealt to WHL59 [6h 6s Qh] [7s]
Dealt to Overholdt [Th 9s 2c] [4d]
swafjto bets $6
WHL59 calls $6
Overholdt calls $6
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to swafjto [Ad 6d Jh Js 8c Tc] [4h]
swafjto bets $6
WHL59 folds
Overholdt raises to $12
swafjto folds
Uncalled bet of $6 returned to Overholdt
Overholdt mucks
Overholdt wins the pot ($70)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $73 | Rake $3
Seat 1: Rubysb folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: APELMOIKID folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: swafjto folded on 7th St.
Seat 6: dav2335 folded on 4th St.
Seat 7: WHL59 folded on 7th St.
Seat 8: Overholdt collected ($70), mucked"

[ptrack mike]

it says that seat 5 (me) raised 4th, but I didn't, I bet. It properly says I bet 5th (and not raised).

This is proper behavior in PTS. On fourth you had a pair on the board so you were allowed to, and made, a double bet. This can only happen on fourth street in Stud and and PTS considers this a raise. I'll look at the other hands later this weekend and report back.

[Brainish]

Thanks for bringing the issues you've found to light.

[RustyBrooks]

it says that seat 5 (me) raised 4th, but I didn't, I bet. It properly says I bet 5th (and not raised).

This is proper behavior in PTS. On fourth you had a pair on the board so you were allowed to, and made, a double bet. This can only happen on fourth street in Stud and and PTS considers this a raise. I'll look at the other hands later this weekend and report back.

Hmm. I see what you mean but I don't find it a compelling reason to call it a raise. For strategic purposes, it's still just a bet. Statistically it's just a blip - paired doors aren't that common and people don't always double bet. That explains why I only found a few instances of it in the 1000 or so hands I checked.